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Sticky:[Winter] Missile Rebalance + Hurricane tweak

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 63 post(s)
Sinigr Shadowsong WATAG Academy SOLAR WING 4	Posted - 2012.09.18 20:06:00 - [1] - Quote Caldari missile shipline is officially dead now. After those changes Caldari missile ships beyond frig-size will become as rare as damp-focusing Lachesis nowadays. Let's see all categories of missiles. 1. Frig size. 1.1. Rockets: almost fine, it's just their DPS is weak. 1.2. Light missile launchers: noone use them, propably we will see them now and then as often as small railguns. Low dps, hard to fit. 2. Cruiser size. 2.1. Rapid light missile launchers: beyond some gimmick fits almost never used and I highly doubt they will after Winter. 2.2. Heavy missile launchers: now they will have a terrible DPS while being the only choice a missile boat of this size can fit without crippling itself. With upcoming Drake nerf it won't be used much. 2.3. HAML: they just useless. Hard to fit, extremely short range that can't be buffed by overpowered TE and TC. On top of that low dps and can't hurt small targets. 3. Battleship size. 3.1. Torpedoes: outside of bombers torps are awful. Extremely short range and can't even do full damage to the Death Star without gazilion of target painters. 3.2. Cruise missiles: too much range that noone needs, very low damage output and cant hurt cruiser-size targets without TP's or a lot of rigs + very good missile skills. 4. Capital size. Don't know much about that, but I know for sure that capital-sized missile launchers are worse than capital-size turrets. So what do we have: Bad for PvP and bad for PvE missile ships. There are almost no point ever training: - Light missiles - HAM - HM (after Winter) - Cruise missiles - Caldari capitals The only viable missile types we left with are rockers and torps (for SB only). I want my SP in missiles back.
Sinigr Shadowsong WATAG Academy SOLAR WING 9	Posted - 2012.09.19 19:57:00 - [2] - Quote After second though, those change to missiles are having side (or intended?) effect: homogenisation of Eve. I personally don't mind it and evem want some steps in this directions (unification of damage modules, but that's another topic), but for spme players it might be unappealing. Secondly, without hatsh emotions I can say now that this will bring HM in line... with other long range missiles: Standart Launchers => Heavy Missile Launchers => Cruise Launchers => Citadel Laucnhers (?). I think that those missile system have same defining characteristics: 1) Very low dps. 2) Very long range. 3) Huge delay before damage. 4) Low alpha-strike. 5) Good damage projection. What else those systems have in common? Obvious answer as that they are actually rare. Almost anything they provide can be made by other weapon systems better and without delay. Yes, they are cap stable and allow you to choose damage type, but so are Projectiles. We don't see any Cruise launchers or Standart launchers and PvP beside few gimmick fits. Personally I want to see those 2 used more, not HML used less. The other major point here is short-range missile launchers. CCP Fozzie said that HAML are good weapon that got overshadowed by HML. I think that he is only particuallry right, because HAML are actually overshadowed by HML but not good weapon system themselve. I see those reasons for it: 1) Too low dps. HAML offer too low dps output. Compare them to medium beam lasers, blasters and ACs and you will see that difference is rather noticeble. The only good dps with HAMLs can be achieved on pimped tengu which is a problem with hull, not HAMLs. 2) Low range. It might be partially solved with proposed changes to TE and TC, but using low slots for TE on ships with low amount of low slots (bad pun) will harm already low dps. I understand that this range is still higher that range of unbuffed medium short-range turrets, but ships that can use HAMLs are slow and fat. Missile ships just can't fit 3 Ballistics controls and 2 TE and be fine with it. 3) They are hard to fit. Other weapon systems based on idea that short range weapons are easy to fit so they can be used with conjuction of good damage protection and utility. HAMLs just leave you with slow, undertanked short-range ship that can only brawl if opponent is desperate enough to get in melee range (and that mean scram range because of Caldari slowboat doctrine). 4) Have to reaload really often. It's a trait of all missiles, but it really hurts with high RoF. I can even bring you a good example: Sacriliege. An interesting and beautiful ship left in the dust because it is stuck with HAMLs. It could be great ship but it's seldom used despite great tank and tremendous capacitor. Nerf of HM are probably needed, but it should be either not that harsh or come with a buffs to other missiles (HAM, Torps and Cruise). Of course any torp reworks should include fixing Stealth Bombers. This change will most of all hurt new players. I remember how I started to play Eve: I was choosing faction by aesthetics and lore, not by fotm (because I haven't know which was a fotm). And it was not a fault of a new players that was told by their friends/corpmates "Train Drake then Tengu". If a new player decide to choose Caldari he or she gonna get disappointed and left with ineffective PvE missile ships, unusable Torps/Cruise in PvP and 2 very short lines: - Naga/Rokh (which arguably is not why any new player choose faction to focus), good for only special fleet formats - Jam ships (same as the above, but even rarer used in 0.0 fleets)
Sinigr Shadowsong WATAG Academy SOLAR WING 10	Posted - 2012.09.21 07:12:00 - [3] - Quote Jorma Morkkis wrote: Rita May wrote: Jorma Morkkis wrote: Terik Deatharbingr wrote: Then just need to revamp missile mechanics to be in line with guns. That will solve everything. You mean like that missile will "teleport" next to target ship after launch and explodes. Yeah, if you can find the way to explain how it is possible... ... But of course 100+ km range on instantly hitting missiles... No thanks. not that i want that, but your point about the teleporting thingy... Ask the projectils or hybrid charges how they do it all day long in EVE The only "nearly" instant-hit weaponsystem, from that point of view, would be the lazors cu http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railgun http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coilgun Those systems don't bring speed even remotely close to insta-hitting target from 200km. If you assume that they are SO advanced to achieve speed like 1000km/s that I can assume that Caldari missiles are SO advanced that can do magic things too. Also artillery is not based on Railgun/Coilgun.
Sinigr Shadowsong WATAG Academy SOLAR WING 10	Posted - 2012.09.21 07:23:00 - [4] - Quote Jorma Morkkis wrote: Is 7 times the speed of sound fast enough? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/29/navy-electromagnetic-railgun-video_n_1311251.html No. The speed of sound is 343.2 metres per second so 7x(Speed of Sound) is 2402,4 metres per second or 2.4km. Even 70x speed of sound would mean 8.3 seconds delay before hitting at 200km.
Sinigr Shadowsong WATAG Academy SOLAR WING 10	Posted - 2012.09.21 09:15:00 - [5] - Quote Raven, CNR, Navy Scorp and Golem will become much better for PvE than now, so you can continue to run missions as pure Caldari.
Sinigr Shadowsong WATAG Academy SOLAR WING 10	Posted - 2012.09.21 09:31:00 - [6] - Quote Katharina B wrote: So please explain.. WHY will the "Raven, CNR, Navy Scorp and Golem will become much better for PvE than now"? Not just claiming.. deliver facts please. Noone can bring facts at this stage, it's just a F&I Discussions and no changes are made yet. Those ships will become better because you will be able to fit torps with TE/TC and have actually good damage projection. You will be able to make Cruise hit small targets. T2 missiles will stop being a joke. TD are bad for every ship beside drone boats so nothing so special for Caldari here, just learn which ships use ewar and counter it just like you kill damp or neut rats. Drone changes are affecting everyone and Caldari actually take it easier than other because they never relied on drones in a first place. As was said before you can loose a couple of drones per 5-10 missions, that's not a big deal.
Sinigr Shadowsong WATAG Academy SOLAR WING 10	Posted - 2012.09.21 12:54:00 - [7] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Why don't you guys buff HAMs instead/as well? Buffing HAMs slightly is an option on the table, but if we do it will likely be through fitting requirements instead of damage. The TE/TC change proposal would be a very significant buff to them and we don't want HAMs to get too out of control. [/list] What about Tops and Cruisers? The problem here is with BS missiles so unappealing there are no progrssion like with any other systems. Small AC ==> Medium AC ==> Large - that's a progression for both PvP and PvE ... HML = X => Cruise launchers and HAML = X => Torps just because BS-sized missiles are not a viable choice for PvP. This mean that missile path for a PvP player starts and ends on HML (probably HAML after Winter, but not sure about that because of fitting, ammo capacity and close-range slowboats). Seems that you just forgot about existance of those systems.
Sinigr Shadowsong WATAG Academy SOLAR WING 10	Posted - 2012.09.21 12:55:00 - [8] - Quote Sinigr Shadowsong wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: Why don't you guys buff HAMs instead/as well? Buffing HAMs slightly is an option on the table, but if we do it will likely be through fitting requirements instead of damage. The TE/TC change proposal would be a very significant buff to them and we don't want HAMs to get too out of control. [/list] 1) Does this mean that HAM have to be subpar because HML are better than medium rails that nobody use? 2) What about Tops and Cruisers? The problem here is with BS missiles so unappealing there are no progrssion like with any other systems. Small AC ==> Medium AC ==> Large - that's a progression for both PvP and PvE ... HML = X => Cruise launchers and HAML = X => Torps just because BS-sized missiles are not a viable choice for PvP. This mean that missile path for a PvP player starts and ends on HML (probably HAML after Winter, but not sure about that because of fitting, ammo capacity and close-range slowboats). Seems that you just forgot about existance of those systems.
Sinigr Shadowsong WATAG Academy SOLAR WING 10	Posted - 2012.09.21 13:01:00 - [9] - Quote Dr Sheng-Ji Yang wrote: Quote: I addressed that in my earlier response post, but it comes down to the fact that heavy missiles are so powerful that they don't provide a stable baseline from which to balance ship bonuses. Heavy missiles are so good that they'd be worth using on an unbonused ship in many cases. So we're getting them into better shape, then we can build upon that with the bonuses for HM using ships. Okay you guys realized that HM were to good. When you then start to realize that Minmatar medium turrets are too good? Example: Myrmidon. AC Myrmidon makes more sense than Blaster Myrmidon due to damage type choosing and capacitor consumption. Agree on this point, t's very selective to see advantage of HML and not to see same for medium AC. And that's also a problem not only with HML and Medium AC, but with small AC (bleeding Punisher anyone?) and large artillery (1400mm Abaddon says hello).
Sinigr Shadowsong WATAG Academy SOLAR WING 10	Posted - 2012.09.21 13:07:00 - [10] - Quote HELLBOUNDMAN wrote: The problem with the CNR/Golem is the need of at least 2 target painters minimum even with cruise missiles. This means the cnr has pretty much not tank if you don't spend a lot of isk on the tank. and while the golem might have good tank on paper, it's rediculous sig radius counters that, and the crap sensor strength and requirement that you have both rig slots fitted with t2 rigs makes a huge difference. 1) Not anymore! You can replace painters with TE/TC or combine for more efficiency. 2) Most BS need to be pimped in order to be good for PvE. Try to make a good tank and DPS on Machariel without wasting at least twice hull price for fit. Nalha Saldana wrote: They fix a lot of their issues with the new TCs and TEs. Torps and Cruise will be fixed only when they be used as often as Large AC or Large Artillery nowadays in PvP.

Sinigr Shadowsong WATAG Academy SOLAR WING 12	Posted - 2012.09.24 13:06:00 - [11] - Quote Morrigan LeSante wrote: I already called the SNI will become a (PvE) monster with these changes I doubt about SNI. It has good tank, but don't have nor range bonuses for torps neither enough launcher slots to make bearable dps with Cruieses. CNR and Golem on the other hand have potential for it.
Sinigr Shadowsong WATAG Academy SOLAR WING 12	Posted - 2012.09.24 15:24:00 - [12] - Quote This whole thread would be way more productive if we knew numbers on how TD/TE/TC/TL would affect missiles. Whithout numbers it's just a wild guesses, we all know that CCP can do such extremes like +5% range per TE and +30% range per TE.
Sinigr Shadowsong WATAG Academy SOLAR WING 12	Posted - 2012.09.24 16:02:00 - [13] - Quote Sadly Cruise and Torps won't be touched until at least next Summer Expansion.
Sinigr Shadowsong WATAG Academy SOLAR WING 15	Posted - 2012.09.25 05:21:00 - [14] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: I also wanted to once again let people know that I'm still reading That's great that you are paying so many attention to feedback. Can you consider allowing Guided Missile Precision and Rigors affecting Unguided missiles? It's just incosistent with TE/TC/TL/TD and turrets. It would be fine if you nerf a bit explosion radius on them and then allow Guided Missile Precision bonus to apply to make it roughly the same.
Sinigr Shadowsong WATAG Academy SOLAR WING 15	Posted - 2012.09.25 06:11:00 - [15] - Quote I asked for numbers before and ofcourse have not recieved answer. My last post was that Guided missile precission should affect all missiles. CCP can nerf their values and change skill name to make things the same, it's just the inconsistance that I dislike. BTW skill that only affects LM, HM and Cruise falls dangerously close to Defender's, FOF's and Shield Resist Compenstation's skills territory.
Sinigr Shadowsong WATAG Academy SOLAR WING 15	Posted - 2012.09.25 07:13:00 - [16] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Out of curiosity what exactly are you guys hoping you'd see from a BC balance pass that would change your opinion of this missile proposal? First of all removing links from tier 2 BC. They are not used anyway and just confuse new players. As one of previous posters said, I'd like to see one one tier for bonuses and another for combat. Ferox: Shield Resists and Shield links bonuses (weaker than Command). Brutix: Hybrid Damage and Information links binuses (weaker than Command). Cyclone: Projectile Damage and Skirmish links bonuses (weaker than Command). Prophecy: Armor Resists and Armor links bonuses (weaker than Command). With weaker bonuses, lower EHP and no covert/nullifier those ships would not replace T2 or T3 booster ships but will allow new players to start with something while training leadership. Also they could be used in small roaming fleets and would be much more accessible and killable than cloaked bubble-nullified T3, encouraging more PvP overall. No more "we can't fight them or start roam because noone here have Loki" or "we can't afford bonuses to T1 cruiser-size fleet. Drake: RoF bonus instead of kinetic, velocity for HAML would be welcomed too. If you ease fittings HAMLs it can survive without resist bonus. Remove link. Myrmidon: More bandwith and useful bonus instead of +rep, like hybrid damage/rof or armor resists. Repair bonuses are just bad. Remove link. Hurricane: We'll see how it will work with 220. How about moving one high to med? 2 utility slots are a bit too much and this will give Cane a proper Shield tank (can make it OP though). Remove link. Harbinger: Replace cap bonus with armor or range and buff basic capacitor. make sure that it can be fitted as easy as other BC. Remove link. This will make tier 2 BC more balanced with each other, all of them will be good.
Sinigr Shadowsong WATAG Academy SOLAR WING 15	Posted - 2012.09.25 12:21:00 - [17] - Quote Lallante wrote: I think you are seriously underestimating the effect of TE/TCs working on HAMs. Being able to extend HAM range and effectiveness vs small targets 30 - 60% may well prove to be the new FOTM. I think we should wait and see before buffing HAMs (except maybe fittings, to bring them in line with other close range weapon systems) Where have you got those numbers? Just pulled out of your cargo?
Sinigr Shadowsong WATAG Academy SOLAR WING 15	Posted - 2012.09.26 06:13:00 - [18] - Quote HAMs are bad now. Compare amount of Zealots to Sacrilieges. Or amount of Pulse Legions to HAML legions in PvP.
Sinigr Shadowsong WATAG Academy SOLAR WING 15	Posted - 2012.09.26 07:21:00 - [19] - Quote Noemi Nagano wrote: Wall of text. Good post, I agree on those points. Most people here prefer to ignore things like Harbinger's ability have both flight of light drones and flight of ECM drones or Hurricane's 2 utility slots and just stick to EHP/DPS/Range.
Sinigr Shadowsong WATAG Academy SOLAR WING 17	Posted - 2012.09.26 08:51:00 - [20] - Quote Please stop comparing Drake and Brutix. Tier 1 BCs are just weaker, the fact that Myrmidon have no gun bonuses doesn't automatically put Brutix in same group as Drake/Harbinger/Hurricane.

Sinigr Shadowsong WATAG Academy SOLAR WING 17	Posted - 2012.09.26 11:32:00 - [21] - Quote Lallante wrote: (in fact, my prediction is they will be heavily OP as they will project to longpoint range and hit HACs for full dmg with a single TE). Once again you don't know numbers. Sigle TE may give 5% of range, it's CCP after all. They don't want to give us numbers nut you already make claims just like you know them.
Sinigr Shadowsong WATAG Academy SOLAR WING 17	Posted - 2012.09.26 12:41:00 - [22] - Quote Lallante wrote: By the same token (and used just as much), I note Caracal and Typhoon. No you can't. Caracal is terrible and used much less than Vexor. Typhoon is not a Caldari ship so there are still no alternatives to Drake in terms of T1 Caldari missile ships above frigs for PvP. Though I've never seen Typhoon in active PvP (unlike Dominix) and in PvE (unlike Dominix). And typhoon are usually Smartbomb/Neut/RR. If you want to add another empires there are also Arbitrator for drone/armor users. Just because you see Caracals in RvB they won't become close to Vexor in usefullness.
Sinigr Shadowsong WATAG Academy SOLAR WING 17	Posted - 2012.09.26 15:59:00 - [23] - Quote Lallante wrote: When you get to the point of "there are no good t1, non-frig, non-capital, missle ships, that are caldari, other than a drake" you are talking so incredibly specialised set of limits that your comments loses all force. There are also no t1 amarr tracking disruptor non-frig platforms other than an Arbitrator. So what? Except that Arbitrator is tracking disruptors is specialized EWAR and missiles are supposed to be Caldari replacement for guns. How about viable T1 non-frig Winmatari Projectile ships?
Sinigr Shadowsong WATAG Academy SOLAR WING 20	Posted - 2012.09.27 18:35:00 - [24] - Quote Jorma Morkkis wrote: Missiles aren't the only weapon system in game. It's not even the only weapon system for pure Caldari pilots. Around 50% of Caldari ships use hybrid turrets. And of all those ships only good combat ones are Merlin, Harpy, Rokh and Naga, latter 2 unsuble in PvE and work only in specific formats in 0.0 blobs.
Sinigr Shadowsong WATAG Academy SOLAR WING 20	Posted - 2012.09.27 19:22:00 - [25] - Quote Jorma Morkkis wrote: Noemi Nagano wrote: A mission fit with 25km optimal with longest range ammo and no prop mod? I see what you did there .. Mach has 4,23km optimal but it is one of the best L4 mission ships... And 70km faloff, almost always fited with prop module and has best movement speed/agility in class. Oh and selectable damage type. Which proves that speed and range are actually important in L4.
Sinigr Shadowsong WATAG Academy SOLAR WING 20	Posted - 2012.09.27 19:47:00 - [26] - Quote Jorma Morkkis wrote: Sinigr Shadowsong wrote: And 70km faloff, almost always fited with prop module and has best movement speed/agility in class. Oh and selectable damage type. Which proves that speed and range are actually important in L4. Yeah? Mixed damage type with every ammo. T2 projectile ammo is almost completely explosive. Only small amount of kinetic in mix. As a "pure" Amarr pilot I don't move when I shoot so speed isn't important for me. But I don't say no to 70+ km optimal though. Don't be so hypocrite. T2 projectile ammo are not used because it cuts falloff, so it's usually a RF ammo. Mixed damage is more a trait of blasters/lasers, projectile ammo are more pure than those. Pure kinetic is not that important because of Phased Plasma which is actually better against kinetic-weak targets than Hybrid ammo. L4 are more often blitzed than not so speed is of a key importance.
Sinigr Shadowsong WATAG Academy SOLAR WING 20	Posted - 2012.10.01 19:11:00 - [27] - Quote I think that even with reduction cost we won't see a lot HAM users this WInter because of too short range. And without TE/TC for missiles there probably won't be good missile platform for PvE. While you are here, I see that CCP still want to force Cladari into kinetic damage (with new destroyer). Could you consider replacing Winmatar +Damage bonus to +Explosive Damage bonus? It will be fair trade-off for Mataru pilots to get more DPS but being more predictable or doing less DPS but adapt to situation, just like with most Caldari ships.
Sinigr Shadowsong WATAG Academy SOLAR WING 20	Posted - 2012.10.01 19:16:00 - [28] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: Take a close look at the new Minmatar destroyer. Oh, missed that one, nice. I was talking about turrets though.
Sinigr Shadowsong WATAG Academy SOLAR WING 20	Posted - 2012.10.01 19:31:00 - [29] - Quote DeltaPhalanx wrote: Fozzie, I presume since you have not mentioned it, that you're not likely to find time to update the Nighthawk and the Cerberus? Based on his previous answers they mostly will be upgraided after Battleships. He want's to first finish all T1 going down-to-up, then T2 and eventually T3 (don't know if it relevant to capitals because it's very touchy subject).
Sinigr Shadowsong WATAG Academy SOLAR WING 20	Posted - 2012.10.01 20:00:00 - [30] - Quote Indeed launcher capacity increase would be very appreciated.

Sinigr Shadowsong WATAG Academy SOLAR WING 20	Posted - 2012.10.01 20:15:00 - [31] - Quote Another solution instead of increasing launcher capacity aor halving missile size could be reducing reload time. Currently missiles spend more time than any weapon system to reloads. Milton Middleson wrote: Gets a superior damage bonus. Complains about ammo consumption. Well it's different from Matars who can load 120 shots into a turret and have 20000 spare ammo in cargo.

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